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Author Topic: Reflection vs Transmission  (Read 436 times)
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twinsen
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« on: 00:25:37, 09 June, 2009 »

I was wondering is there any advatage to using a reflection grating versus a transmission grating. I can see that an advantage might be the folded light path allowing a smaller instrument, is there any other reasons the medium hires ionstruments I have seen use reflection gratings??

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alexthegreek
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« Reply #1 on: 11:40:52, 09 June, 2009 »

Hi Alex !

You are right that in comparison with a transmission grating the system using a reflecting one will be more compact .

Also a trans. garting absorbs some wavelengths depending on the glass and coatings it's made of .
But the lenses ( collimator and camera objective ) absorb some wavelengths as well .
 Usuallythe problem is in the UV region  or near .

Also a gratings causes some chromatic aberration as well which adds to the one of the whole system . That's why grisms are being used .

But using a trans. grating is also useful . E.g. shooting spectra of shooting stars .You just place it in front of a lens .
 In addition , since there is no reflection ghost light is less( but still present ) .

 Hope that helps a bit

 Greetings from Greece
  Alex
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« Reply #2 on: 18:14:22, 09 June, 2009 »

Yep, compactness (an unfolded medium resolution tranmission spectrograph with say 200mm focal length collimator and imaging lenses would be almost half a metre long) and efficiency, particularly for finer gratings. (looking through a fine transmission grating is like looking through net curtains)

BTW a grism (wedge prism plus transmission grating) is just a way to keep the optical axis square. Tilting the camera slightly will do the same thing. See Buil's LORIS transmission grating spectrograph for example.

http://astrosurf.com/buil/us/loris/loris.htm

Cheers
Robin
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« Reply #3 on: 00:59:17, 10 June, 2009 »

In my never ending search for a bargain I turned up these on ebay http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/LOT-OF-24-PRECISION-DIFFRACTION-GRATING-PRISMS_W0QQitemZ360161354281QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item53db4a2229&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12|66%3A2|39%3A1|72%3A1683|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A50 that got me wondering if they could be used in astronomy. Im not even sure if they are transmission gratings but they appear to have a very low grating seperation 24grooves/mm
Now I think about it more and more I tend to think they may be used for IR work and might not have a very high visible reflection. Not good for astronomy in other words??

 I was also wondering what difference the scope makes to your spectrograph design. I guess the faster focal length scopes will require quicker lenses as collimators which means more expensive camera lenses ;) ???I have been pondering over the 10" Shcmidt newtonians for a while now and will probably purchase one when we move into the new house this summer. Would this scope be appropriate to spectroscopy.

Would it be possible to have a fixed collimator after the slit which directed the beam at the grating and then using a second zoom lens you could view different regions of the spectrum reflected from the grating in various resolution by zooming the second camera lens in and out?? The advantages here would be that you would be able to get many varying resolutions specific to the type of study you required??

Regards
Alex
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robin_astro
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« Reply #4 on: 17:10:52, 10 June, 2009 »

In my never ending search for a bargain I turned up these on ebay http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/LOT-OF-24-PRECISION-DIFFRACTION-GRATING-PRISMS_W0QQitemZ360161354281QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item53db4a2229&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12|66%3A2|39%3A1|72%3A1683|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A50 that got me wondering if they could be used in astronomy. Im not even sure if they are transmission gratings but they appear to have a very low grating seperation 24grooves/mm
Now I think about it more and more I tend to think they may be used for IR work and might not have a very high visible reflection. Not good for astronomy in other words??

24 l/mm is too coarse for normal use  though it might make a useable cross disperser in an Echelle spectrograph.

Quote
I was also wondering what difference the scope makes to your spectrograph design. I guess the faster focal length scopes will require quicker lenses as collimators which means more expensive camera lenses ;) ???I have been pondering over the 10" Shcmidt newtonians for a while now and will probably purchase one when we move into the new house this summer. Would this scope be appropriate to spectroscopy.

Yes the speed of the spectrograph optics needs to match the telescope. You can always use a Barlow or reducer to do this though. The main thing is to make sure you have enough focus travel to allow the slit to be placed at the focal plane.  The size of the spectrograph tends to be dictated by the aperture. The bigger the scope the bigger bigger the spectrograph. big scopes means big star image/slit size and therefore greater dispersion for the same resolution . You can make  the image smaller by going faster but then the components need to be larger. A 10 inch is a good size (It is the design aperture for the LHIRES III for example)

Quote
Would it be possible to have a fixed collimator after the slit which directed the beam at the grating and then using a second zoom lens you could view different regions of the spectrum reflected from the grating in various resolution by zooming the second camera lens in and out?? The advantages here would be that you would be able to get many varying resolutions specific to the type of study you required??

This is similar to the approach Maurice Gavin uses with his WPO spectrograph (interchangeable lenses)
 http://www.astroman.fsnet.co.uk/newspec.htm
You need to be careful though. Just changing the imaging lens changes the dispersion but does not necessarily change the resolution. (you magnify the spectrum but you also magnify the apparent slit size so you can end up back at square one.) Generally collimator and imaging lenses
end up similar for best performance
If you fancy designing your own then Christian Buil's site is a mine of information including excel spreadsheets to test out the performance

Cheers
Robin

EDIT: I have just realised Maurice Gavin's design is a littrow so the collimator and imaging lens are one and the same so they are always matched -which makes my point ;-)
« Last Edit: 17:16:14, 10 June, 2009 by robin_astro » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: 21:33:12, 10 June, 2009 »

Presumably with a reflection grating , only one surface needs to be flat? Or is there some reason why this doesn't matter?
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« Reply #6 on: 00:33:56, 11 June, 2009 »

Presumably with a reflection grating , only one surface needs to be flat? Or is there some reason why this doesn't matter?

Yes the grating substrate is normally optically flat on the grooved face (or in the case of a transmission grating two optically flat and parallel surfaces.)

Transmission gratings can also be made with the two faces deliberately non parallel so the chosen central wavelength of the  dispersed beam sits on the optical axis (a grism)

Reflection gratings are sometimes made concave for some designs where the grating and collimating/imaging optics are combined. see here for examples
http://gratings.newport.com/library/handbook/chapter7.asp

Robin
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